socalpokerjoe ([info]socalpokerjoe) wrote,
@ 2007-11-19 12:53:00
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What's the Rule?
Any and all feedback welcomed on this one...

...Ok, so, i'm playing Omaha at Pechanga on Saturday night and I'm half tilted but not so bad. I've already had one incident with this woman who's husband or boyfriend or whatever is sitting behind her and it's almost like they're playing "poker by comittee". Nothing illegal, but he's looking at her cards and they're discussing hands ad nauseum after the fact, they're just a really annoying couple.

So, now it's later in the session and i'm involved in a multiway pot with the second nut low. It should be noted at this time that i am in my least favorite seat, the #9 Seat. that being said, the player in the #1 Seat has acted out of turn on several occasions already; folding out of turn, betting and raising out of turn. Part of the reason is that being in the #1 Seat, it's not really easy to see if the #9 seat still has cards or not, but the other reason is that he's kind of an idiot. Back to the hand, I am very low on chips and have decided that i'm going to get all of my money in with my second nut low. On the river, he is first to act and when he bets out, three players in front of me fold and after he watched them fold, he very weakly tossed his cards toward the muck, not remembering that I still had a hand and had not acted. The dealer put his left hand over the player's cards and I could have sworn that they touched the muck, which was situated close by, on the dealer's left. I perked up immediately; "did they touch the muck?" I asked. The dealer shook his head no, and is now in the process of pushing the cards back to the player in Seat #1. Not a word more was spoken, but i could tell by the uneasyness of his body language that he knew something was not cool.

So, I have a few questions:

Is the lobbing of cards, face down, in a forward motion, enough to consider a hand mucked?

do the cards have to actually hit the muck pile to be considered mucked?

would you have made a bigger deal out of it if you were me? I think i would have been well within my rights to call the floor there. In the end, i did nothing.

I know it's kind of a scum-baggy way to scoop a pot, but the rules are the rules and they're there for a reason.. Also, maybe this brain-dead donkey would have learned a valuable lesson about acting out of turn.



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[info]joepro
2007-11-20 02:37 pm UTC (link)
i can call my floor man in vegas for a ruling. if you recall david singer getting eliminated from the wsop me in 2007, I think it's a somewhat similar situation.

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Singer
[info]rotojeff
2007-11-20 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Wasn't his case about wanting to get another player's hand declared dead because that player's cell phone went off and he went to turn it off?

Anyhow, in the case here, I think you're within your rights to call the floor. Clearly the forward motion was there. I would argue it's the same principle as tossing the chips forward. Did the cards cross the line? The only thing that's working against you is that intent isn't there - he wasn't trying to surrender the hand, he was thinking the hand was over and he was about to rake the pot.

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Re: Singer
[info]joepro
2007-11-20 05:03 pm UTC (link)
The comparison with singer is a little sketchy, but singer's problem was that he was sure that he was beat in the hand, and by calling the floor after the player broke the rule about answering his cell phone, the floor had to make the right call and declare the player's hand dead, otherwise the player would know singer was weak and therefore called the floor over.

In this case, it would have been as if socalpokerjoe had raised, then the player half-mucked, and then the floor was called.

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House rules
[info]clubhousespy
2007-11-21 04:19 pm UTC (link)
This might be a case of house rules. I don't know what the official "vegas" ruling would be, but I know here in CA, different houses have different rules. You were well within your rights to call the floor there, although I'm not sure what their ruling would have been.

(Reply to this)

Ruling
[info]joepro
2007-11-26 02:25 pm UTC (link)
I spoke with my floor man buddy in vegas, he said the "letter of the law" would be to muck the players' hand, but usually the casino will go with the intent, and favor the fairness of allowing the player to show down the hand. He said it's common for a dealer to push cards back to a player in a case like this, or a case where a player fails to realize he is in the big blind and tries to muck. So, you lose.

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